Todd Bentley Fires Blanks in Texas


By Danny Gallagher

DENTON, Tex.--The University of North Texas "Super Pit" indoor stadium is packed to the nosebleed seats with people hoping to see a knee to the stomach, a poke check to the ribs, or the classic swift kick to the cojones–because they all know that mega-evangelist demon stomper Todd Bentley is IN THE HOUSE for one night only.

As the crowd gets lathered up for the event, there are long slow lines snaking out of the ladies rooms that could rival the wait times at Disney World. Overpriced bags of potato chips and canned soda wait behind counters for families who don't stop to think about things like food budgets or their children's blood sugar levels. And almost every seat has a butt planted firmly in it, including the handicapped and disabled sections that are filled with people in wheelchairs.

They want God and they want Todd, not necessarily in that order.

Bentley doesn't wear $2,000 custom made suits or exotic Italian shoes to show how God helped him attain his empire. He wears blue jeans with holes in the knees and Jesus-themed T-shirts that look like they came off the rack of an evangelical chopper shop. His arms are filled with a gaggle of tattoos that are a mesh of mutating gangrene through eyes from 20 rows away, and his face has an assortment of metal piercings and barbells, which are reminiscent of his early days as a hard-partying, drug-snorting, whiskey-soaked juvenile criminal who has a colored criminal rap sheet of assaults, burglaries and even sexual molestations, according to an investigative report conducted by the news magazine Report in Bentley's native Canada.

Todd Bentley - Stage

A native of British Columbia, Bentley became famous overnight after just four months of tent revivals in a Lakeland, Florida, RV park that are picked up and re-broadcast by an internet network called GOD TV. Bentley breaks the mold for itinerant healing acts, using street cred and biker lingo instead of the usual light shows and altar calls, but his supernatural story-spinning is truly inspired: messages from angels, out-of-body trips up to heaven, fantastic healings that are not only instantaneous but backed up by “documented medical evidence” that, according to the Associated Press, doesn’t get widely produced.

His revivals resemble Pantera shows. He doesn't just speak in tongues and scream into microphones. Bentley rids people of their emotional and physical demons by beating, slamming or kicking them out of their bodies because a) God commands him to, and b) "Sometimes when you're dealing with a demon spirit, it's done with great force."

Unfortunately, Todd is making a rare venture out of Lakeland just as his tent meetings are starting to burn out. A recent "Nightline" story painted his church in a very unflattering light both from the perspective of a father who brought his sick child all the way from Seattle to the local townspeople who feel his presence has put a blight on their small Southern city. Eventually Bentley announced he was leaving Lakeland "to reflect and to rest."

Apparently he’s about to find out that skipping town is the best thing he can do for his credibility anyway. The nearest parking space tonight is on the other side of Fouts Field and takes more than a half an hour to find, so I know the crowd is going to be a large one. Families trudge through the cement-steaming heat with their Bibles in one hand and children in the other. The most popular themed T-shirts are a Reese's Pieces wrapper parody and the eye-grabbing "Under the Influence…of Christ!" Bentley also draws more than his share of actual bikers, complete with the jackets, the vests and the colorsas well as a noticeable number of biker jackets and leather vests on the backs of bikers for Christ.

TB Crowd

The pre-show features a soft rock band, the same band that seems to pop up at every revival, singing the same religious phrases 30 or 40 times through cheap-sounding concert equipment to whip the crowd into the kind of spirit-shaking frenzy that only an epileptic seizure could replicate. Just off to the side stands Bentley, psyching himself up, changing positions from lying on his stomach (ground meditation?) to pumping his fist to the blaring beat of the drums.

On this night Bentley shares a double bill with preacher Keith Miller of the Denton-based Stand World Firm Ministries who tells the assembled 8,000 that "Tonight, we're going to have an early Fourth of July" (minus, of course, the fireworks, free hot dogs and constant replaying of Lee Greenwood's "God Bless the U.S.A." until your ears bleed). Then finally, Miller asks the crowd to give Bentley "a great big God bless you" as he steps up to the mike and fulfills the crowd's insatiable appetite for some serious UFC-style demon ass-kicking.

Bentley knows how to work the crowd. He doesn't immediately launch into a barrage of BAMs or let the Holy Spirit ragdoll him into the "Curly Shuffle." Instead he starts with the revival equivalent of "Hello, Cleveland, are you ready to rock?"

"There was only two other times that I would go into another city and He was there," Bentley said, "but I didn't feel it the way I feel it now in Texas. This is the place where the fire of God will fall. It's already falling!"

The crowd feeds into his enthusiasm and Bentley launches into a rapid-fire repetition of "Holy Glory!" until the entire stadium can hear his vocal chords crack.

"Do you want the glory?!?" Bentley screams. "The smoking holy glory?!?"

He falls to both knees, shaking his head from side to side, as muffled screams reverberate through his rubbery lips.

"Let the outpouring come here tonight!" he shouts. "Let the coals fall tonight!"

TB -Knees

Then he brings it down. Bentley talks about the early days of his ministry, visions of heavenly bodies and settings and divine prophecies as told through the mouths of angels. He talks about his legion of 10,000 "harvesters" who roam the streets of Lakeland looking to spread the word of his miracles and God's capacity to work through him. He even talks about his pilgrimages to cities and nations who are "hungry" for the word of God in a calm and registered tone–and all that lasts about eight seconds.

"I've come here to help spread the fire," Bentley says. "BAM! BAM!"

Four or five BAMs later Bentley utters an ear-shattering KABOOM in Miller's direction and the Denton preacher falls over backwards, shaking and twitching like a slab of bacon that's been thrown on a hot griddle.

Bentley goes on for another two hours about his divine medical miracles, supernatural surgeries, religious root canals and raising of 30 people from the dead, including one poor soul who asked his family to play his revival at the funeral and started knocking on the inside of the coffin. Unfortunately, there won't be any such miracles performed this night. No one in a wheelchair is pushed to the stage. No cancer survivors walk up the stairs to thank Bentley for kicking the carcinoma right out of them or a recently departed zombie for returning him to the land of the living. Not one crutch-clutching crowd member hobbles to the stage to get the holy head-butt from Bentley himself. Truth be told, I was a little disappointed.

Denton Crowd - Floor

So were a lot of other people who frankly had more of a right to be than I did. William Dembski, a research professor of philosophy at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, attended Bentley's Denton revival with his wife and their twin 7-year-old boys, one of whom is autistic, at the behest of his friends who told him Bentley had the healing touch. He couldn't even get his family down to the main floor to pray.

"Ushers twice prevented that from happening," Dembski said in the Baptist Press. "They noted that he was not in a wheelchair. . . . People with needs were shortchanged. It seemed that power, prestige and money (in that order) were dominating motives behind the meeting. Minimal time was given to healing, though plenty was devoted to assaulting our senses with blaring insipid music and even to Bentley promoting and selling his own products (books and CDs)."

Just before the revival reaches its third hour, Bentley asks for an offering. Badge-clad volunteers roam up and down the aisles with white plastic buckets while parents and adults whip out their checkbooks or pull some big bills out of their wallets, all of which would go to Miller's ministry, Bentley claimed. By that time it’s obvious there’s gonna be no carcinoma-kicking, so most of the contributors were probably just showing their gratitude for the absence of Lee Greenwood music.


Anonymous | 12:54 am on 9/22/2008

I thought he did black them out and that was the problem the news had with the doc. ( not ment to defend Todd )

Aussie | 06:23 pm on 7/24/2008

Sure this guy sounds suspect. So do a lot of his detractors here. This kind of thing gives me grief. Not just because of the evidence of stupidity in all of us, but because in the middle of all of this I am personally trying to work out what is going on with a reluctant signs and wonders ministry of my own.
I just got home from three weeks in Brazil where we saw hundreds of healing miracles. I am the biggest sceptic of all yet around 90% of the people we prayed for claimed to be healed. Some of the healings were plainly miracles, with blind people seeing, lumps vanishing, etc. You guys have no idea what it's like to KNOW your own limitations and see this kind of stuff. I torture myself regularly with questions about whether these are just psychosomatic disorders, or some kind of hypnotic "power of suggestion" thing. It's not very "Word of Faith" but no-one is more surprised than me when people are healed. I preach Jesus, people repent and receive forgiveness, I pray for them and they get healed. That's what preaching the Good News does.
Any how my point is, all of this speculation is clearly unhelpful and I would say it is in fact a strategy of the enemy of our faith to undermine what God is genuinely trying to do. Thanks RJ for your post.
Realise Ole, that you are not only striking Bentley down as a charlatan, but you are also assisting in the devils intent of raising up charlatans in the first place. He does it in order to decieve people, create confusion and turn them away from the genuine article. I hope that any other up and coming genuine articles out there don't shipwreck their calling because of the roar of criticism guys like Todd Bently generate.

sarah shafer | 09:01 pm on 7/24/2008

Psalms 119:20-.... My heart is "breaking" with the" longing"that is has for your ordinances and judgements at ALLLLL TIMES . You rebuke the proud and arrogant ,the accursed ones,who err and wander from your commandments. Take away from me reproach and contempt, for I keep your testimonies. Father God I pray this over" My" life and over Todd and over all involved in any way shape or form.. Let everything that can be shaken be shook to the roots and plucked up.... till all that is left is you all of us... Bring us back to the fear of the lord and make the crooked place in all our hearts ...we all need to be alone on our knees, prayer changes EVERYTHING.

Ron in Oregon | 09:02 pm on 7/24/2008

I usually don't post comments, but I will make an exception for this man. I used to be involved years ago in the Latter Rain and also the Word of Faith. I saw some bizarre happenings and men who were really void of love except for themselves. I also saw Christians chasing after the latest experience and who would believe almost anything. Mr. Bentley has taken the bizarre to a new level. "Bam! Bam! Bam! Bam! Take it! Take it! Take it! Release the angels of revival, release angels of glory!" I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is all about kicking an old lady in the face. The Lord Jesus Christ never bodily ran someone down and jumped on them as Mr. Bentley reported he did.(A full mount as said by Mr. Bentley. He also decribed it as "ground and pound".)He should get frequent flier miles for all the trips he has taken to heaven. He reportedly met with the Apostle Paul.(Christians are not to seek encounters with the dead. To do so is to invite deception)What a story he tells about the 14 foot angel that appeared in his apartment a week before he went into full time ministry.(It's all recorded on You Tube if you want to check it out) Mr. Bentley claims to have the gift to transfer anointing to those he lays hands on. Wow! All I have is the Holy Word of God and the Holy Spirit as my instructor. In my life, the Lord Jesus Christ gets all the glory. I follow Him and no man on this earth. The best thing is to plant yourself in a local church that teaches the Bible and follow Jesus. It may be difficult to find a good pastor as the apostasy is great in the American Church today. The sin nature in man is so wicked that even Christians can't be trusted to do the right thing. That's is why we are to judge ourselves when we take the Lord's supper.(See I Corintians Chapter 11) Pray for Mr. Bentley and his followers that they might be delivered from deception. Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus Christ!

budda | 10:29 pm on 7/24/2008

-"Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus Christ!" - Ron.
FYI, I'm praying that He hold off for just a little while longer, I'm working on going out with an asian chick I know and I think I have a shot. So if He doesn't come back in say, oh about 3 weeks or more, you can blame me.

Ron Glynn | 10:36 pm on 7/25/2008

Budda-FYI, Christians throughout the church age have longed for the return of Jesus Christ.(Titus 2:11-15) You may win the heart of the "asian chick" and perhaps marry her. Perhaps, the Lord will return just before you leave on your honeymoon. You see, I also have a sense of humor.

budda | 05:42 pm on 7/30/2008

Whoa there buddy, who said anything about marriage and honeymoons. Thats crazy talk.

BJ | 06:54 am on 7/28/2008

I'm sure she's praying the "come quickly" won't happen as well.

SRebbe | 01:38 pm on 7/29/2008

As always, another sage piece of advice from BJ.

budda | 04:45 pm on 8/18/2008

OK, OK, Jesus can come back now. That thing with the asian chick fell through.

Discerner 24/7 | 08:27 am on 7/25/2008

Good post Ron! Sounds like my situation until 2003! Thats when I left the "WOF" for good! A 14 foot angel? That's nothing! Remember when Oral Roberts saw a 900 foot Jesus? Then built his City Of Faith white elephant?

Ron in Oregon | 10:45 pm on 7/25/2008

Thanks Discerner. I had forget about the 900 foot Jesus Oral Roberts reported seeing. I always wondered how Oral measured Jesus so precisely. I don't believe they make a tape measure that long. However, one could measure a distance like that using a laser measuring device. However, one was not mentioned in the fund raising letter that went out.

SRebbe | 04:02 pm on 7/25/2008

'ground and pound'? somebody's been watching too much WFC.

SRebbe | 04:03 pm on 7/25/2008

xcuse me... UFC.

krn | 06:54 pm on 7/28/2008

Getting the 'transfer of anointing' is easier than gettin' down on your knees and intensly seeking GOD for the direction of your life. ALL Believers HAVE the anointing if they are BORN AGAIN. You don't need someone to tranfer or impart it to you. Just SEEK GOD and HE WILL LOOSE IT FOR SERVICE.

sarah shafer | 09:03 pm on 7/24/2008

oops.... crooked places" straight"

Anonymous | 12:47 am on 7/25/2008

The sad thing is that he is sending the demon infestation throughout the world via the people that go there to receive his demonic spirits. No wonder the bible says in the last days all except the very elect will be deceived.

Many would rather believe the lies that tickle their ears than sound biblical truth.

Anonymous | 02:48 pm on 8/06/2008

And many would say you are judging many people who you consider false prophets but may truly be men of Jesus Christ. Who are you to judge who is of Christ and who isn't?

David Williams | 11:06 am on 7/25/2008

Here's what I wonder, though. There are a ton of ministries out there doing "signs and wonders." Some are small, and others pack 'em in for the show. But in all my years of ministry, I've never witnessed a healing that passed muster.

The cancer usually seems to still be there afterwards. I don't rule healing out, but I tend to think that God heals where He will heal...and that we're not the ones who make that call.

This leads me to ask: why do we need those big booyah gifts to have faith in Christ? How have we reached that place where we chase after such things and imagine them to be the metric of salvation?

Anonymous | 01:14 pm on 7/25/2008

Doesn't have anything to do with salvation David, unless you question them and their authenticity (or lack thereof) of course. Then you are in danger of "blaspheming the Holy Spirit", as if they have any idea what that actually means.

People are just insanely desperate for change.

The same principles propelling Obama to the front are the same that are making Bentley so popular. How NOT to have a revival or win an election? Advertise sameness, consistency, and the status quo. People generally are not happy with their own lives. The same for christians as heathens. Look at all the negativity in both camps. So many people hate themselves and want to change. Bentley promises them change like an infomercial promises weight loss without exercise. Same principle. He is the master of showmanship and psychological exploitation. The big show makes people FEEL different David, so in their heads they must actually be different.

I have seen a few things I would call miracles. Small things, God doing a little extra for the people He loves, for people too humble to make demands of Him. Nothing like the self fulfilling, self promoting demigods on Bentley's stage.

budda | 01:15 pm on 7/25/2008

Sorry, that was me.

budda | 10:34 am on 8/03/2008

I just reread my comment here and realized it sounds like I am equating Bentley and Obama. Certainly not what I meant to do.

pigseye | 06:51 pm on 8/06/2008

Whew...I thought you were equating them, what a relief. I think
bentley would make an excellent running mate for Obama. Their qualifications are similar.

Amarie | 02:04 pm on 7/25/2008

Oh, c'mon. Stupidity? Probably, Sinister? Probably not. The Lord chose to show up for a while in Lakeland and heal some people and grace some people with an overflowing of His Presence. He does what He wants, where He wants. This guy takes that ball and, instead of enjoying it, staying where he's been planted, decides on an ill-advised road trip that is not, apparently bearing fruit. He will go on talking himself into believing that just lifting up the name of Jesus is okay alone without any special anointing, try to sell a few books,etc, until God or someone he respects reins him in. The Lord doesn't like glory-seeking book-sellers. I think He wants anonymous movers and shakers these days. It smacks of desperation, ignorance, and the flesh, but apparently God will use Balaam's donkey or Bentley if those of us who are too afraid of making a fool of ourselves for Him will refuse to take risks. I'm not sure what's going on right now but I'm watching and praying and trying to be honest with myself--while walking the razor's edge between reason and the unpardonable sin--because the HS is definitely doing something "other" lately, if you hadn't noticed. And yes, false prophets will arise, too, but the ones who lift up the name of Jesus for a couple hours in music aren't the ones who trouble me. I may rather have ice picks driven in my ears after 27 choruses, but they don't trouble me.

SRebbe | 04:06 pm on 7/25/2008

yeah, and the tables were just knocked over by a strong wind in the temple, too. after all, the glory was still being given to G-d for those sacrifices.

Process Fundamentalist | 05:15 pm on 7/25/2008

Funny that! I was slightly shocked to read the Nightline article. I know Bill & Lorna (the ones mentioned in the article) personally. And I have seen their daughter's plight. And I continue to pray for a miracle. Bill is a true man of faith. It is interesting how the story is spun. Bill is not disappointed at all.

Process Deist | 09:13 am on 7/26/2008

This is I have found someone to share Process Theology with. Let's compare notes on Alfred North Whitehead.

Paul ( A nigerian preacher) | 12:22 pm on 7/26/2008

It is unfortunate that the body of Christ has got to the stage that anything is acceptable. When we refuse to test the spirit demonic manifestation is glorified as the power of God. The ob ssesion with signs and wonders has driven us to that point that we are no longer seeking God, but seeking supernatural experiences. This is such a time that the Lord had spoken about before His leaving the earth, that if the days were not shortened the very elect would be deceived. For those who follow the likes of Todd, they should go to Nigeria are see the likes of T.B. Joshua. If only every believer will exercise discernment, the likes of TOdd Bentley will not have a cloak to hide their deception.

Discerner 24/7 | 05:56 pm on 7/26/2008

Well said Paul! Actually the U.S.A church has been on steady decline since Charles Finney back in the 1830's and '40's. Finney was Pelagian to the core. From there to the farce that happened at Azusa Street in 1906. To the phony healing revivals of the 1940's featuring charlatans,Oral Roberts,Jack Coe,A.A.Allen,etc. From there to the heretical "word of faith" movement. That prduced the heretics Kenneth Hagin,Kenneth Copeland,Paul Crouch,Fred Price. My point is Todd Bentley didn't happen overnight. This has been building for many many years.

UNCLE KENNY | 03:44 pm on 8/06/2008

Azusa Street was a farce?

Dude, please introduce me to these WOF jackasses that twisted your head so bad that you now think God is some old dude sitting in a rocking chair at that great nursing home in the sky. They need to be pimp slapped for the bitterness and loathing that is snarling your heart.

Just because those WOF schmucks (and I mean that in the true yiddish) screwed up their theology. . .

URRRGGG! Discerner I don't even know what to type here. . .my heart goes out to you. I have really grown to like you from our dialogue on this board. I am going to be praying for you, and I don't mean that in the mamby-pamby christianese. I mean I am going to actually hit my knees right after I type this and pray for you.

What those dudes did to you must have been really fouled up. . .

I am sorry for that. I know my apology in proxy doesn't do much, but man. . .that is just messed up that they so screwed with you that you no longer have ANY hope in the miraculous.

Take care--I am headed off to pray. . .

Discerner 24/7 | 01:21 pm on 8/07/2008

Ah yes uncle Kenny we meet again.Tell me why were Copeland,Price,Paula White,T.D. Jakes all speakers at the 100th anniversary? Even Parham who started Azusa repudiated it in 1906! BTW Parham was charged with sodomy in 1907. Jakes is a oneness pentecostal (they deny the Trinity.) Juanita Bynum also a UPCer was there. Bill Hamon (also a farce) one of Wagner's buds was there. Sound theologians of the time,R.A. Torrey said,"it was emphatically not of God,and founded by a sodomite." G.Campbell Morgan called it,"the last vomit of Satan." H.A. Ironside said it was "disgusting...delusions and insanities." But then these three respected men must've thought "God is some old dude sitting in a rocking chair!" Just three party poopers huh? Hey before you pray for me I suggest you go to It's called "Azusa St. and modern Pentecostalism." Obviously you've been told the sanitized version. I don't expect you to believe anything I've said about it you're set in your ways. Anyway take a look. This is far more than "WOF schmucks" pentecostalism in general with very few exceptions is in danger of apostatizing. You may want to direct your prayers for the Pentecostals. They need it a lot more than I do!

UNCLE KENNY | 08:32 pm on 8/07/2008


A bunch of people celebrate Christmas and Easter in very weird ways, but we don't hold the event, or God accountable for their weird behavior and tradition. Just because a few oddballs held some 100 year anniversary doesn't mean the event was not authentic. Try doing some objective research.

By the way, copy and pasting from Wikipedia is unbecoming, especially when you do it out of context with the Torrey, Morgan, and Ironside quotes. Either you or the source you got it from took one small paragraph about the critics from volumes of historical research that shows something incredible happened there.

Going way back before there was an internet I actually wrote a paper in my undergrad days (as a non-believer) about that event. I read actual newspaper articles, public records, and objective accounts from Los Angeles and they reported incredible social change in crime, poverty, and sickness in that region during the era. The gist of the paper was: "Can religion make a difference?" I went into thinking churches were incapable of having an impact on a community beyond aspects of faith. I was wrong, just as you are when you sugest it was a farce.

Comparing Azuza to Lakeland is like comparing apples to mandarin oranges in tin cans.

Beyond our theological differences, how are you doing these days?

Discerner 24/7 | 12:45 pm on 8/11/2008

So you're saying Torrey,Ironside,etc. supported this event? I doubt it. I didn't get my info from Wikipedia. Mike Oppenheimer runs Let Us Reason. So some of the media had good things to say about Azusa? I'll bet there were just as many newpapers that didn't like it. I'm doing fine these days! Sorry it took me so long to respond. My internet service hasn't been too good lately. John G. Lake tried to claim that Spokane Wa. was the "healthiest" city in the U.S.A. Of course no records show that. There were more than just a few oddballs at Azusa St. in 1906.

Discerner 24/7 | 04:48 pm on 8/11/2008

BTW uncle Kenny,this may interest you. Look at Yeah I know,you're going to say this isn't a typical vineyard service. Do yourself a favor and look at Phil's bookmarks on you'll find a treasure trove of solid Biblical teaching. Take a look.

pigseye | 07:25 pm on 8/06/2008

Only in The USA..
Charles parham was a racist klan supporter even after his so called
'holy spirit' revival. A.A. Allen should have gone to the AA and he would not have died of cirrhosis of the liver. He was a chalatan thru and thru. Check him out on line but not at the so called generals of the faith. These people who follow these guys are so decieved. Jack Coe, paul Cain, all of these so called kansas city ( false ) prophets, Rodney browne, price and all you mention. The worst thing is their rejection of sound theology. Jesus is God, were not, things like that. People want to feel good and thats ok, I love to be filled with the Spirit. But testing the Spirits has become a bad topic ( even by some posters here) discernment has become a bad topic ( even here ). But I feel a song comming on:

Jesus make me feel good
Oh Jesus I want to feel good
I went to the Glory and fire revival
Then I felt good for a while
Oohh Jesus make me feel good again
when I was there I felt fire in my bones
but then by the time I got home it was gone
Oohh Jesus make me feel good again ( Repeat ad nauseum )
After at least 7 hours of singing this song bring out bentley.

Note ..I really just wrote that, by the end of the week I'll have it on my website at

Discerner 24/7 | 03:01 pm on 8/07/2008

Hey pigseye good info. I'd forgotten of Parham's klan involvement. Parham and Seymour both denied central tenets of Christianity. You're right discernment has become a bad topic. Understand the culture we live in. Even in the church! That is don't judge don't discern anything lest you be labeled the "dreaded heresy hunter!" As I told uncle Kenny my beef goes far beyond the "WOF" movement. Most pentecostals indeed a lot of evangelicals for that matter are not grounded in sound theology. If certain people on this site would stop "psychoanalyzing" me we'd have a more intelligent discussion. I was in the WOF I left it I'm warning others of it's defective theology. Indeed I'll warn people of anything that pertains to "charismania." Be it in the WOF,Vineyard,TBN,etc.

pigseye | 05:49 am on 8/09/2008

I like the name. The stats at these "revivals" where the gospel is avoided at all costs. Repentence is not mentioned, sound doctrine and contending for the faith are seen as devisive activities by pompous old world Christians. "Common get with program...Its not what you believe, its what you believe makes you feel like."
There was a survey done and it was astounding how so many of the
evangelical group believe such things as :
1) Jesus is not the only way to be saved.
2) There is no hell
3) There is no devil
and many others. I don't have the stats handy but they are alarmingly high. My pastor is an ex WOF ( rhema ) seminary grad.
They were starting a new church and needed worship musicians, so we interviewed eachother. He has rejected the majority of the P-gospel
I share with him about the voice of the martyrs, " after your saved you lose everything, and maybe your life." How do you reconcile that? I use a lot of satire in my songs because I can say things that are caustic, while keeping peoples attention. GBU my man

Discerner 24/7 | 12:59 pm on 8/11/2008

Well said pigseye. I'm glad your pastor is now WOF free! You aren't by chance more in the Reformed Theology camp? I'm getting that way. I was hard core Arminian most of my life. You're right todays "revivals" are more about "ME" theology than the Gospel. I have a family member who also is a Rhema grad. He no longer subscribes to WOF teaching. Instead of calling Bentley's schtick a revival why not call it for what it really is,a feel good party. I don't know if you're pentecostal? Sound doctrine seems to escape most pentecostals. Don't get me wrong Wayne Grudem,Gordon Fee,C.J. Mahaney are pretty solid pentecostal theologians. I must admit Reformed Theology is quite new to me. I'm still sorting things out about it.

budda | 08:05 pm on 8/12/2008

Sorry boys, but old school "sound theology" and charismatic theology are just two sides of the same coin.

Discerner 24/7 | 12:06 pm on 8/13/2008

budda you're partly right. Some charismatics are quite sound theologically. Most (charismatics) are into the "happy clappy feel good lets try and conjure up the Spirit of God" stuff. Most charismatics especially Joel Osteen don't preach the Gospel. Instead of repentance Joel tells us how to be a "better you." I will say this about Joel he is unique in that he has managed to "marry" word of faith with seeker sensitive teaching. Rick Warren should be jealous of him!

budda | 10:05 pm on 8/13/2008

Discerner, Don't get me wrong, I like to discuss theology too and was at one time convinced that there was absolute-true-theology out there to find if I only looked hard enough. Over time I realized that some individual people were close to God and had squirrely theology. Some people were far away with good, solid correct theology. My best friend in college was LDS (mormon) and he loved and served Jesus more than most christians I knew (and I was in full time missions for 6 years). His faith was true, even if his system of belief contained things I found laughable. I think Jesus accepted his love and service. Who am I to say Jesus rejected him cause his father and spiritual leaders taught him some goofy stuff.

I realized that a belief system was only a vehicle. The destination counted more. You can call that weak or squishy but I believe it's truth, and actually braver than judging someone's faith by a harsh set of rules and prerequisites. I still think some belief systems are better than others but I try my hardest not to judge someone's faith by the brand name on the outside of their place of worship or lack thereof.

Not that I would encourage anyone to go see Bentley, I find him scary. But John McArthur scares me too.

Process Deist | 11:18 pm on 8/13/2008

Budda. In case I have not told you latley.....your head is screwed on straight and you are living and leading others, in God's Kingdom, right now.

Discerner 24/7 | 01:09 pm on 8/15/2008

Well budda I can only refer to Scripture. Unless you believe that the Bible is inerrant and infallible our discussion is pointless. I'm sorry but the "Jesus" of LDS is false. Mormonism is polytheistic to the core. Jesus to them is just one god of many. The "harsh set of rules" you mention is Scripture. 1 Timothy 4:16,Paul writes to Timothy, "watch your life and DOCTRINE closely.Persevere in them,because if you do,you will save both yourself and your hearers." BTW LDS believe that Jesus and Lucifer were spiritual brothers. Yes I know that there are many Protestant denominations. The true ones all agree on the essentials of the Christian faith.

budda | 05:06 pm on 8/16/2008

"The true ones all agree on the essentials of the Christian faith."- Whith all do respect, just exactly what, prey-tell, are the "essentials" of the Christian faith that ensure salvation, discerner?

Discerner 24/7 | 05:48 am on 8/17/2008

The essentials of Christianity. 1. The Deity Of Christ. 2. Salvation By Grace. 3. Resurrection Of Christ. 4. The Gospel (the preaching of Law and Gospel.) 5. Monotheism. 6. Jesus The Only Way To Salvation. 7. The Virgin Birth. 8. The Doctrine Of The Trinity. Sadly most denominations split over minor ridiculous things. However the above "essentials" most adhere to. To deny any of these truths is to deny Christianity itself. Put simply salvation comes by grace alone,through faith alone,by Christ alone.

Process Deist | 01:03 pm on 8/18/2008

I know that Trinitarians are convinced that they can explain how they are Monotheists, but they are just fooling themeselves.
They are by definition, Polytheists.
Listen closley to their prayers, hymns and creeds.

budda | 05:04 pm on 8/18/2008

I need to start saving my rants so I can get 'em out and use 'em again. I had a good one about 4 months ago that was to the point here. Let me see if I can find it. Sorry, I am really busy this week (for the next few actually) You would think learning to drive trains would be easy. No steering wheel, just forward, stop and back. Nope, it's really, really, complex. Lots of tests etc...

SRebbe | 04:11 pm on 8/19/2008

technically, those are the foundations of the Fundamentalism Movement. but now we're picking at straws here, going into church and denominational history of which we're all sorely lacking in........

JoshH | 01:22 am on 8/19/2008

To use a Quaker phrase,
"That Friend speaks my mind!"

I enjoy discussing theology as an intellectual subject. But I find it in the territory of heresy for people to get into hosing contests about whether their doctrine is true and someone else's is not and therefore that person is going to hell. They then invariably will pull out works vs faith. The problem is that their doctrinal "checklists" meet the very definition of "works." That's because "faith" is outside of the domain of simple intellectual/ideological belief.

Sonnie | 08:00 pm on 1/04/2011

Anything short of preaching repentance is stealing from God.
If I go away feeling good, but am lost because I have not repented - I am damned.
Would never want to be the one who preached God short.

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