The World In Fits Over Fitna

By John Bloom | 03/31/2008

Having spent some time around the movie business, I can attest that the most dreaded words you can hear are normally “Will you watch my short film?” So we may have set a world record for triumphs by a first-time short-film director last Thursday when Geert Wilders, leader of the Party for Freedom in the Netherlands, released his 15-minute impressionistic documentary Fitna. Three million viewers in the first 24 hours.

Geert Wilders

Fitna movie

But it’s even better than that. By Friday afternoon you had to stand in line at the United Nations to make your speech condemning the film, and the number of actual heads of state who had spoken out against the movie were already into the double digits by the weekend. (By the way, nobody in the English-speaking world knows what the Arabic word fitna means, especially not the confused writer of the quickie Wikipedia article on the subject. But it’s used in Sura 8 of the Koran, the chapter that talks about violent jihad, and the most reasonable choice among the many ways you could translate it is simply “War.”)

Not since the Danish Muhammad cartoons of February 2006 have so many people come out of the woodwork to scream “Blasphemy!” on the one hand and “Censorship!” on the other. We even had the Secretary-General of the United Nations himself condemning the film, not because it’s blasphemous, but because it’s “anti-Islamic.” (Wilders was so proud of that that he put the Reuters report on his homepage.) You also had the mainstream media, led by the New York Times, refusing to deal with what the film actually says and instead offering up a dry description of its content and generally portraying Wilders as an extremist, similar to the way we portray fringe politicians like David Duke.

And they all totally wimped out on publishing the website where you can watch the film:

Maybe sometime in the next decade or so the mainstream media will start to figure out that people want to judge for themselves. Would they have been similarly reticent to name the website if this had been an anti-Christian film by Christopher Hitchens? Of course not. There are documentaries on the History Channel all the time about “the Jesus the church doesn’t tell you about.” Does anyone take the microphone at the United Nations to say “This is irresponsible and anti-Christian”? Of course not. Some of the most shocking statements by the Muslim fanatics in Fitna are anti-Semitic, including the coaching of a three-year-old girl to tell the camera that Jews are “apes and pigs.” If a rabbi were to step forward and say the Saudis (who broadcast that clip) were being blasphemous, everyone would ignore him. If a Muslim cleric says the same thing, European governments actually take his calls!

This “crisis,” if you can call it a crisis, was caused entirely by the actions of the Netherlands government when Wilders first announced that he was going to release a film about Islam. In fact, this may be one of the first cases in history where the censorship efforts started before he had actually made the film! Because Wilders is under a death fatwa, and since death fatwas in Holland have to be taken seriously ever since filmmaker Theo Van Gogh was knifed to death by fanatic Mohammed Bouyeri (interviewed in Wilders’ film, by the way, saying “If I had the opportunity to get out of prison, and I had the opportunity to do it again, what I did on November 2nd, Allah!, I would have done exactly the same”)—since this is the altered landscape of Holland ever since they decided that multi-culturalism is not working, there was agitation from the moment Wilders said he had a film.

The government, instead of saying, “So what? Many people have films,” agreed to meet with delegations from 30 Muslim countries. (This is all before the film has been seen by anyone. So they’re meeting ... to discuss what? Whether Wilders had sufficient film school experience to handle the mise-en-scene?) Then there was more drama as Wilders went in search of a Dutch broadcaster. All of them insisted on editing the film, if they showed it at all, and Wilders didn’t trust them. As a last resort Wilders went to the Internet—which is a shame, because it looks like the film was shot on 35-millimeter filmstock—but as soon as he was ready to go, his server pulled the plug on him! We’re used to hearing those stories out of China, but his server was Network Solutions in the good old USA. Finally Liveleak stepped up and agreed to host the site. Liveleak is the same place that ran the execution of Saddam Hussein after it was censored by YouTube in 2007.

So now that we’ve seen the film, the question should not be, “Is it unfair to Islam?” There are lots of films, books, tv shows that are unfair to many religions, and that’s a subjective call anyway. The question should be, “Is it presented in such a way that it’s a coherent statement of a position, or is it just the ravings of a lunatic?” Not only is it coherent, it’s exceptionally moving. It’s powerful. It’s dramatic. I don’t even think the scenes of actual violence are the most chilling parts of it. I think it’s the footage of radical Muslim sermons. You can see the anger. You can see the hatred. To the argument made by critics that it equates the Koran with terrorism, I would answer that the film is about people who do justify their terrorism by verses in the Koran. To those who say, “Yes, but 99 percent of Muslims are peaceful,” I would answer that, yes, I agree, but that’s not what this film is about—this film is about the 1 percent, because 1 percent is all it takes! And for those of you who are wondering whether you should watch it because you’re worried about seeing the beheadings, I’ll give you the opposite of a spoiler: the editor cuts away before the head is actually cut off. Why show such a scene? To answer the question people are putting to Geert Wilders: Why do you have to put this on film? Look at what they put on film. Shouldn’t that be where our outrage is directed?


David Williams | 08:35 am on 3/31/2008

Having watched it, my first impression was how familiar it seems, the snippets of Q'uran violence verses in particular. There was a short montage of those up on YouTube last year...they kept getting flagged and taken down. Of course, they were put up by a "New Atheist" who also created a lovely montage of violent, death-to-the-unbelievers Bible verses.

Though aggressive criticism of jihadist Islam is needed, Wilders seems to press his argument too far. It gets...well...a bit ham-fisted.

That said, those sentient Christians who don't have a Pavlovian response to the word "Islamofascism" do need to ask themselves how much they actually know about Islam.

Joshua C. | 09:46 am on 3/31/2008

Having just watched the video myself I could not help but thinking it looked like the run of the mill video someone would find on youtude. Maybe I was just expecting better production value.

I agree Wilder goes out of his way to make his point in the video. I was surprised by some of the verses that were used and how some were clearly pulled out of context.
“Islam the straight Path” 3rd edition. By John Esposito. Oxford University Press. 2005 is a pretty good book on Islam and has a section dealing with the verses that are used to incite violence. So I found it odd when Wilder did not use parts of a Koran that a Muslim scholar would say are problematic. Well not to odd.

On a brighter note I have found people in my church to be open to learning about Islam. I did series of presentations about Islam during the Sunday School hour and a majority of the church showed up, especially those who never go to Sunday School.

Sven Svenson | 02:32 pm on 3/31/2008

Joshua C.,

John Esposito is nothing more than and intellectual dhimmi and an apologist for islam and muslims. Since you believe that you're an enough of an authority to teach about islam to your christian brethren, I would think you'd know that.

Did you teach them how the koran was organized? Did you teach them that Medina surra abbrogate the Mecca surra? Did you read all of surra 9 to them and teach them that islam is a religion of peace based upon that surra (the last to be "revealed" to moohamed)/snark? Did you teach them that allah replaced Jesus the Christ on the cross with Judas and that islam denies the very foundation of christianity? Did you teach them that islam is the only major religion in the world that advocates and demands the murder of apostates? I'll bet not as a majority of your church wouldn't have shown for the second in a series of "educational" lectures on islam.

If you want an even brighter note, why not go to your local mosque an teach the muslims about christianity and the risen Christ? I'm sure you'd be very well received.

Anonymous | 08:41 pm on 3/31/2008

Concerning Joshua C.Now you know why we in the U.S.A are in so much danger. The politically correct leftist think if we make nice with these guys and explain ourselves that they will like us. How many bombed towers will we need to wake up. It appears at least more than one.
Sangri La

Josh C. | 09:00 pm on 3/31/2008

So, Anonymous you know exactly what I taught and I am a politically correct leftist? Seriously, before you light the fires and tie me to the stake ask me what the heck I did do.
But hey why do that it so much easier just to hate, destroy and persecute.

a sarcastic bad speller | 10:27 pm on 3/31/2008

Damn you! Damn you to hell Josh C. for trying to educate people about a world religion and something connected to an important issue of our time. all we need to know about islam comes from movies, tv and our great twentyfour hour newsnetworks. anyone who does differnt is a leftwing liberal commie dirtbag. And since I was there at your thing you did like eveyone else i was wondering in part 451 what the dancing monkeies had to do with the the influcane of ww1 on muslem countries

Sven Svenson | 11:51 pm on 3/31/2008

Sarcastic Bad Speller,

Actually, all we need to know about islam can be found on the web - even the Koran. Try reading and comprehending it sometime. Even muslim scholars admit the at least 20% of the koran makes no sense or cannot be understood.

a sarcastic bad speller | 09:37 am on 4/02/2008

yes the internet s is the best sourse for akurate information. that where i lernt to spelll. and the internets info far out weighs any re3al world knowledge or acidemic credentals. now insault me like you did every other poster with you re grand knewledge i'd rather learn from a somene who hads the big brass balls to go to a mosquse and talk to alli boba.
you know the kacthlic church killed lincon its on the internets

Sven Svenson | 06:35 pm on 4/02/2008

Sarcastic Bad Speller,

You don't spell it "sourkastik." What a poseur.

Real world knowledge and academic credentials? Oh, my. "Real world knowledge" such as since almost all cancer patients have, at one time, ingested milk then milk causes cancer. Or, how about the "academic credentials" of Richard Dawkins as a biologists and therefore and authority on religion.

You're also an idiot in that you don't have the mental faculty or are just to lazy to use a online dictionary or to distinguish between fact and fantasy.

The R.C. church not only killed Linkon but the Freemasons control the world through a secret cabal. I read it on the web.

So, have you read the koran or are you too lazy to do that too?

a sarccastic bad speller | 04:33 pm on 4/12/2008

Gasp! your overall logic argument and integleance overwelms me. and doing a cutiey phonetic spelling of sarcastic would in no way ruin the joke. i could not read the koren cause some guy name mo hamed, piece be unto him, write it in squigly lines. and the kroan is a no way a confusing out of ordr book the lends itself for people to pick in choose verses.

Josh C. | 08:27 am on 4/01/2008

A Bad Sarcastic Speller. Yeah, I am a bad man. People are probably unhappy I taught, "Jesus Loves Me" in sign langue to the nearby day care. So be it.
As for the non-existent part 451, my presentation was three sessions, the monkeys showed the general disarray after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Hope you enjoyed like all the others who were there that I did not know about.

a sarcastic bad speller | 09:21 am on 4/02/2008

TEACHING SIGN LANGUE TO CHILDERN! you sick mokey nexw you ll be feeding the por and hungery you jerk

Josh C. | 11:39 pm on 4/02/2008

Well my church does this food distribution for those in the community so I’m guilty of that as well.

Josh C. | 07:57 am on 4/03/2008

Also was the "brass balls" comment in the back and forth between you and Sven a reference to me and the others on this site. Just curious because contrary to popular belief they are not made of an alloy.

a sarccastic bad speller | 04:34 pm on 4/12/2008

i red it on the internets

cameron larson | 09:58 am on 4/17/2008

Hey Josh why don't you simply tell us what you did teach? Did you mention any of the relevant points the writer made? I don't see how he advocated hate when he just pointed out what the Koran says about destroying and persecuting "infidels" like you. When someone states the truth, not as seen by them subjectively, but what a religion actually advocates in it's teachings this should not be percieved as hate. If I hold a mirror up to you does it constitute hate?

Josh C. | 08:48 pm on 3/31/2008

The brighter note was in reference to David Williams comment about Christians needing to ask themselves what they know about Islam. I thought that was apparent but I could be wrong or you did not read the post I replied to which I see happens a lot on message boards.
I want to get a few things straight before I reply to your questions:

I am an idiot who cannot figure out who and what the authors of books are about
I lack the necessary education/experience to teach anyone about Islam
I do not know how to teach people curious about a major world religion
I am a heretic for spending any time speaking about Islam
I have never been to a mosque and talked about Christianity with Muslims

A simple yes or no to these five questions will do.

Sven Svenson | 11:12 pm on 3/31/2008

Josh C.

1. If you think Esposito writes a "pretty good" book about islam without noting that he's an intellectual dhimmi and islamic apologist, then yes, you're an idiot.
2. If you did not teach those who are curious about islam the points that I made, then yes, you don't have the experience to teach anyone about islam.
3. How you teach has nothing to do with my comments. What you teach is important to fully inform those who are "curious." If you're method of teaching is to describe islam as a religion of peace as a starting point then you're not teaching but indoctrinating.
4. You're a heretic if you teach that islam is a religion comparable to and of little difference than christianity.
5. If you've been to a mosque to evalgelize then I'm more than surprised that you're still upright.

Next question?

Josh C. | 08:17 am on 4/01/2008

Sven, Let me set a few things straight because you are quick to judge.

1) I know what Esposito is and knowing that makes him a good point of reference for one view point in Islam. It is apparent that he is an Islamic apologist when one reads his books. The book referenced had a section about violent verse and that’s why it's "pretty good." Especially the way Esposito dances around some of the problematic ones. Note I did not say the book was an excellent definitive book about Islam if I had the idiot label might be called for.

2) All I taught was basic facts about Islam, historical time line, sacred texts etc. Then how Jesus shows up in the Koran and the differences. All the parts of the Quran that deal with violence and the extremist movement. Then I spoke about my time in Turkey and all my interactions with the Sunni and Sufi and their types of worship and other little facts.
Unfortunately in reply mode I cannot see the questions you typed so I'll deal with them if I need to after I post.

3) I never started with Islam as a religion of peace. Just created the presentation around the people's questions about the religion.

4) I would never teach Christianity and Islam have little difference. Only someone who is ignorant enough to think all religions are the same would make that claim. Sadly many people do have this line of thinking.

5) I am a very fast runner so that’s how I got away.
Actually it was interesting my interactions with the different Muslim sects in Turkey. The people I met at the Blue Mosque kept correcting me on what Jesus did. Also telling me Christians were polytheists. Tried to correct them but it was a lot like talking to a brick wall. The people at the Islamic Studies Center in Istanbul would listen to me better but like any academic community the discussions often went to the “Angels dancing on the head of pin” or the social ills of the day in our respective countries. Now the Sufi I talked with where a whole other ball game. Have you ever met a Sufi Muslim? These guys are interesting to say the lest. I mostly interacted with Bektashi but that’s a story for another time.

Next question: What did you think of the video the Wilder created?

Sven Svenson | 04:27 pm on 4/01/2008

Josh C.,

Wilders' video was a little disappointing in that it wasn't nearly as dramatic as I had anticipated. A little graphic but sometimes being graphic is necessary to get the point across. I think it should have been more so. It's apparent that Wilders is very concerned about the rearing of the ugly head of islam in the Netherlands more than any where else. To paraphrase what I think is the best observation in the film, "Islam/muslims demands respect from non-muslims but shows no respect to them."

By the way, check out Robert Spenser's video on islam:

You may also want to get Pat Condell's take on the current unpleasantness:

Josh C. | 05:51 pm on 4/01/2008

Thanks for the links I'll give them a look.

Anonymous | 10:52 pm on 4/03/2008

I feel like Beavis and Butthead everytime I log onto this site --- words, words, words . . . who reads this shit, really? John Bloom must really love to hear himself type! I can't get through half his crap without throwing in the towel. This whole website needs to self destruct. It is such a waste of space.

that calvinist doug | 11:14 am on 4/04/2008

see you later, Anon. Parting is such sweet sorrow.

Convoy | 06:28 pm on 4/07/2008

You'll be back. They always come crawling back for more like a danish politican you just can't get enought of the sweet sweet candy that is the wittenburg door

DJ | 08:40 am on 3/31/2008

I heartily agree! I have been saying for years that I am sick of the Islamic world throwing the crusades in the faces of western countries as though they were something unique to us, when the cold, hard fact of the matter is that Islam grew to control the middle east and parts or Europe as a direct result of jihad - a holy war (think crusade)- that lasted a hundred years.

As for the application of Islamic law to the rest of the world, hang it up. You don't want these things being shown in your own countries? That's your prerogative. You really want people to believe that your religion is peaceful? Then start reigning in the psychos who use your religion as an excuse to let loose. The Islamic world gave us much of what we have today in the fields of advanced mathematics and astronomy. That tells me that the ability to think critically and rationally is a part of your heritage. It's time to dig deep and begin building on that foundation again as the means to solving the problems facing the Islamic world today.

As for the leaders of the world - stop kowtowing. One of the main lessons of history is that appeasement NEVER works. Europe tried it with Hitler and Stalin; we all know how successful that was. You may not like what Wilders had to say, but you cannot deny the validity of much of what comprises his main message. As long as you continue to continue to pursue a policy of appeasement, the Islamic world will continue to resort to the tactics that have made for such interesting headlines.

Sven Svenson | 02:12 pm on 3/31/2008


"The Islamic world gave us much of what we have today in the fields of advanced mathematics and astronomy."

Really? Been reading lots of islamic/muslim propaganda sites, have you? By the way, the concept of zero came out of hindu india not islam.

The vast majority of scientific knowledge coming out of the heritage of the "Islam world" were made by dhimmis or forced converts living in lands conquered by muslims. The very foundations of islam, the koran and hadditha, are violently opposed to free inquiry or independent thought.

The koran, according to islam, contains all the knowledge ever needed for the human race. Even today there are highly respected muslim scientists in the islamic world that will argue that earth is flat and that the sun revolves around the earth since that is what the koran says and as, they believe, the koran is the exact, perfect and eternal words of allah itself.

Be that as it may. What, exactly, has the islamic world contributed to science and astronomy in the past 700 years (over half of its history).

mountainguy | 07:58 pm on 3/31/2008

Have you ever heard about Avicenna and Averroes? And there were a lot of algebrists. How sad that Islamic culture has turned so violent (ok, a minority, but a very dangerous one), but I think that much of this has been caused because of the western atempts of expand its economical empire over the "muslim countries" (as a latin third-worlder I know how dangerous and hateful is imperialism).

Sven Svenson | 12:13 am on 4/01/2008


What was the western economic imperialism of the near east, north africa and the subcontinent in the 7th and 8th centuries when muslims were subjugating, expelling and/or killing christians, jews and sundry pagans to bring them to allah's glorious religion?

What you seem to want to ignore is that islam and muslims have been at war with the rest of the world for almost 1,400 years. There are no lands today that are predominately muslim that were not at one time composed almost entirely of christians, jews, hindus and/or pagans who were militarily conquered by moohamedans. They hate the west or any "other" not for what it has done but for what it is.

mountainguy | 07:29 pm on 4/02/2008

Off course, islamic civilization (and yes, I said CIVILIZATION) has been very very violent, as the same way christian civilization (yes I said CIVILIZATION) has been violent too. I tend to think that every religious-based problem is mostly a political-based problem.

Shangri La | 08:48 am on 3/31/2008

John, John, John!
Congratulations for your courage. I hope it doesn't turn out to be another "We are the weird" moment for you. Get ready for a ravenous onslaught from the "unidicted co-conspirators" group CAIR. Kudos to you.

David Williams | 12:08 pm on 3/31/2008

No-one debates the horror of the things Wilders highlights. Of course we should be outraged by those things. But do we concur with his solution? Close borders prejudically to Muslims? Prohibit the construction of mosques? Ban headscarves? This little film is intended to serve that purpose in the Netherlands.

Sven Svenson | 01:50 pm on 3/31/2008


Whether you want to face the fact of not, islam has been at war with the west and western civilization for almost 1,400 years.

When one nation, and islam considers itself to be a nation (umma), declares war on another it is not in the best interest of the object of the the umma's warring to accomodate in anyway its followers. In light of this attempt at self-preservation on the part of the west, Wilders' supposed "solutions" as you call them are no more than logical. Do not admit the enemy into your country, do not allow the enemy to build fortresses in your country and do not allow anyone in your country to wear the uniform of the enemy.

He could go further and demand that all muslims be expelled, (a favored "solution" of muslims toward indigenous christians, jews and sundry pagans instituted by moohamed), but doesn't. What he has called for is the banning of the koran since it it no more than a book of hatred and a manual for waging war against the non-muslim.

You really do need to get up to speed on just what islam is. For starters, it is anything but a religion much less one of peace.

that calvinist doug | 12:49 pm on 3/31/2008

My neighbors are Jordanian-Muslims (actually, I think they're really from Palestine, but like to say they're from Jordan after Jordan bestowed citizenship on the Palestinians). They have two boys the same age as my two, so they play together a lot. For the first two years we knew them, the wife (only here for about 10 years) didn't wear the scarf-robe thingie, but now she does. We had some preliminary "spiritual" discussions in the pre-scarf days; but those have ceased since the appearance of said textile. By muslim standards, they're pretty Americanized, having embraced that greatest American trait, consumerism. It stunned me that even in the wake of 9/11 they just could not bring themselves to condemn what happened, only to make excuses. For all their "morals" the husband tries to loan us internet-pirated movies that are still in theaters, yet they pray 5 times a day...guess you can be a muslim hypocrite after all. We tried to keep some doors open in the early days in the interest of evangelism, but it seems easier to wash my hands of them sometimes.

This constitutes my entire life experience with muslims. All the rest I see and hear via the media. Realizing my myopic lense, I still find little to admire about their religion-inspired worldview.

SRebbe | 03:48 pm on 3/31/2008

Yep, my Muslim exposure is pretty much the same as Doug's. I've been long-distance friends with a Pakistani guy -- similar age -- for a good 5 years. He lived in Karachi, married a doctor as he so earnestly prayed for, moved to Canada, and now has two kids. We keep in touch via Facebook and email. We wish each other the best over holidays and discuss a few things regarding religion. He isn't entirely open with me as it is a very private/personal matter with him.

He was quick to condemn actions surrounding 9/11 and anything surrounding extremists even in present times. He still is traditional regarding family roles (choosing how many children will be in his family, where they will live), but I see that as how he was raised and how he chooses to be with his family. I refer to him as my "bhai" and I am his "little sister" in the grand scheme of things.

I've had the same experiences with xtians, regarding morals and hypocrisy and 'end-times mentality'. Anyone who wishes to blow up the world because everyone else is against them or sees that it is in its last days deserves whatever G-d ultimately decides. Those in the Middle East who share this worldview are being taught this -- and that is why so many don't care if they die as long as they take out as many infidels against them. There are a few voices -- such as Irshad Manji -- being raised against them, but they have death threats on their heads and the conservative Muslims are trying to shut out these 'liberal' leaders to avoid fire.

mountainguy | 07:52 pm on 3/31/2008

I haven't seen it, but here I'd like to say a few thinfs:

1. Its ok to criticise the religions because of all the damage they (as insititutions) have done. But I don't share the idea of correlating Quran as similar to Mein Kampf (off course, Wilders has the whole right to do it, and I respect his rights).

2. Its totally true that, in the case of an antichristian film, for we christians it would have been almost impossible to make any criticeise. And if we did a request for "respect our beliefs" the media would have called us "anacronic", "anti-freedom" etc etc. (BTW, I'm a kind of christian-anarchist-existentialsit christian, so I'm not against "professional atheists" like Dawkins or Hitchens. I just oppose their ideas, but respect their right to criticise my beliefs any time they want).

Anonymous | 09:09 pm on 3/31/2008

It seems the muslims have taken over the site referenced in the article, themoviefitna. The link has been hacked.

David Williams | 09:49 pm on 3/31/2008

My gracious. You're right. There's nothing like performing an illegal act and forcibly silencing an opponent to make people respect your position. At least you can always trust jihadists to never let us forget that they serve the Enemy.

I don't agree with Wilders, but he has every right to articulate that position. The video is still up on Liveleak, although it appears their staff has been getting death threats, and were forced to pull it down to beef up security at their staff office. In the interests of maintaining this thread, you can find the movie here:

ny guy | 09:58 pm on 3/31/2008

See, thats the kind of militantism that pisses me off. I just looked it up and you're right the link has been hacked. My experience with passionate muslims is that they will be pushy as hell when they come into contact with something that they feel attacks their concept of Islam. But to hack someone's web site, sheesh thats nerve right there.

Shangri La | 09:25 am on 4/01/2008

I'll bet the hackers were evil Christians who want to make the religion of peace look bad!

Convoy | 05:55 pm on 4/01/2008

Yes, our master plan to discredit a religion that lends itself to violent activism is going according to plan. Mwhahahahahaha!

ny guy | 10:23 pm on 4/01/2008

I love it too how in their hack they aren't only saying that the stuff in this video isnt true but rather miligning, and then have the nerve to post a link to a video where a number of Christians killed a number of Muslims as proof that the opposite is true. It drives me nuts, they are doing the very thing that they got pissed off enough about to hack the site over. To win at all cost I guess. Truely mystifying.

Deacon Spears | 10:45 pm on 4/01/2008

Well Son, they are just doing what they are taught. They can't help it if their Momma and Daddy had a 'bee-in-their-bonett' about jack-leg-christians.
We sure have made a mess out of what Jesus had in mind.
Do they want to win at all costs? Well, HELL YES. Because we are stupid, don't know WORLD history, and we have this CULT IDEA THAT WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN SAVE THE WORLD!!!!! How GOD DAM STUPID can we be.

Anonymous | 07:49 am on 4/02/2008

Religion is a cancer. Wherever it goes, it destroys lives.

David Williams | 08:41 am on 4/02/2008

Nothing annoys me more than when the disembodied brain of Josef Stalin insists on putting up anonymous posts. Yeah, I know it gets lonely down there in that deep Petrograd bunker, kept alive in a nutrient-filled globe. But comrade, if you want to start a conversation, tell us who you are. Share. We can help pass the time.

Sven Svenso | 06:41 pm on 4/02/2008

Atheism is a cancer. Where ever it is it takes millions upon millions of innocent lives.

Process Deist | 08:28 pm on 4/02/2008

For the last two thousand years, Christians have caused the deaths of millions of innocent lives, using the excuse that they were actually SAVING them. How many have been BAPTIZED with gunpowder and steel?

Optimus Prime | 07:18 am on 4/03/2008

Anyone here have a church that is doing thier baptisms with gun powder and steel?

Josh C. | 07:59 am on 4/03/2008

Nope, just water and the Holy Spirit.

Process Deist | 09:06 am on 4/03/2008

Take a broad view of America's 'manifest destiny'.
Now do you see some gunpowder and steel involved?
Or take a look at the history of Europe and Great Britain.
Now do you see some gunpowder and steel involved?
Before we SAVED them with 'Water and the Spirit', we killed the HELL out of them.

Sven Svenson | 12:37 pm on 4/03/2008

Process Diest,

I guess you're quite content with the "pre-manifest destiny" quaint custom of the Haida chiftains who would slaughter hundreds of slaves from other tribes at their potlaches just to show how "wealthy" they were. Yes, "we" killed a hell of a lot of them/aboriginals and, by the same token, they killed a hell of a lot of "us." Fortuately, there were more of us than them and we were more advance technologically.

Take a look at the U.S.S.R., Veit Nam, Cambodia, China and Cuba. It is well documented that they slaughtered hundreds of millions. Atheists regimes one and all.

When you say "we", I assume you mean chrisitians. Rather than serve up the usual clap trap, tell me, just exactly how many folks have been killed based upon christian theology? Please cite your sources for your numbers while you're at it. (You may even include the serveral crusades against the muslim hordes.) Was manifest destiny based upon christian theology?

Now, if you want to make a comparison with the death cult known as islam then you won't get much of an argument from me. But then islam isn't really a religion. I'm still not so sure that even the homicide rate of that cult will approach that of atheist regimes.

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